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Negative reputation

Published by: webmaster 2010-03-18

Dear Members,

I would like to inform you that I have disabled the ability to give negative reputation. This step affects all usergroups and is effective as of now.

While I understand that the reputation system as a whole seems to be quite popular I believe that negative reputation has no positive effect on the community and the quality of the forum. It has, in fact, too often resulted in conflict and misunderstanding in the past and has not led "ill-reputed" members to behave more "appropriately". Furthermore, I am convinced that the old saying "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" also holds true for the Japan Forum.

Thanks for your understanding.

In the near future I will install a warning system and set up clear and transparent rules when to assign warning points. The accumulation of a specified number of warning points will result in the suspension of a member.
However, I am afraid that a warning system could again be abused in a repressive fashion similar to negative reputation points.

Is that the same warning system as before or a new one ? The last one was probably useless as the users were not notified (I think) of warning points unless we sent them an additional PM. I hope there could be a warning point system that notifies immediately the user, and a list of pre-selected reasons of warning (e.g. "personal insults") that moderators/admins should choose from, so as to avoid abuses of power (i.e. giving a warning for things that does not "qualify" for one).

I think their actions speak louder than their red dots. Anyway there were people with red dots that I didn't think deserved them after looking through their posts. The people who are here just to flame are usually reported or are caught no matter what their reputation is from what I've seen.

mmm to bad it is not possible, because i don't find it fear that somebody have same rep points as I have, but didn't post for a year...

Don't forget that other people can still give you rep. for old posts, months or even years after you posted it. (esp. when you start a very popular thread with a very good post)

how about awards, I once pm'ed thomas about it?

What kind of awards ? Like "most interesting thread starter", "most tactful debater", "funniest poster", etc. ?

Good idea. Giving negative rep only made people angry.

lastmagi, you are wise beyond your years.

Thank you Thomas! You the man!!! :-) :cool: :-)

Doc :wave:

Where I do agree with nurizeko that negative opinion works where people are responsible enough to use it propperly, it does backfire when you have someone who just doesn't like what you happen to say. Generally speaking my rep is 99.9% okay, but I've gotten one negative rep from someone ages ago who no longer posts simply for questioning what it was his point was in a rather oblique thread he wrote---

I think I prefer that admins simply take a vote and remove posters who prove themselves to be too imature to write on a public forum without managing to insult every person who happens to cross their path--- and I am refering to a few people who have been posting recently... one or two have been removed already, and time will tell what happens to the rest.

Where I do think that age does dictate your ability to compose a half-legible sentence, there's not much you can do about that--- At the moment, there are certain people whom are frankly damaging to the quality I think is inherant to Jref which has been built up by the many fine people who have contributed here.

Nono, don't worry Minty. You being Chinese should be fine. It's just that there are always going to be idiots, the naive, etc. regardless of what your ancestry is. :)

I've noticed that many of the forum are actually open-minded enough to be critical of Japan. This is a Japan-reference forum, not a put-Japan-on-a-pedestal forum (although some folks DO do the latter...). Even one of the admins, Maciamo, has written some criticisms of its society which are on the main nonforum site of jref. (While others have disagreed with him, I tend to see these criticisms as a definite possibility, so I keep them in mind.)

So don't let things bother you. We welcome all people. If anything, it's the extreme "Japanophile" that bothers us :)

lastmagi, you are wise beyond your years.

Well, I've been finding myself getting annoyed more and more easily, resulting in me hastily posting heated replies. So I guess I'm not quite there yet :p. I'm surprised I haven't been banned yet.

mmm to bad it is not possible, because i don't find it fear that somebody have same rep points as I have, but didn't post for a year...

how about awards, I once pm'ed thomas about it?

Hey! J-bot is my only friend here, he is the only one that talks to me and listens when I say something...so please don't ban him :(

I nominate myself for that one

Actually, I was thinking about you when I wrote it. :-)

I actually miss neg rep, nowerdays im a bit more blunt, and some folk not entirely likable seem more confident to strut around.
Seems a mixed blessing, we can be a bit more honest, but then, but now some folk can hijack sections of the forum at a time, confident in their ability to avoid community punishment like bad rep.

I think people should be allowed to criticise, it's called freedom of speech. If a person goes to far even without the negative point others will remember the person any way so the effect is the same.

I know some people here only want to hear about the good stuff of Japan but I think it is unrealistic; we don't live in a utopia. I think as long as it is kept under control it should be still ok.

Just one question, what about the people who have already recieved neg rep and have little red balls? Does that get cleared or does it remain?

That's what I was wondering.

I have been hit by the neg rep points for making a statement that somebody thought was not related to the subject matter of the thread. Meh it's only points. Doesn't mean that person is not a good person.

That is good news!! I have just noticed it and was about to post a thread about it...

Noooooo! I was hoping to get just one negative rep here, cause it just seems strange to have gotten none.

You should have tried disagreeing with Maciamo, then you could get a few that would wipe out all the posistive rep you ever had :)

There goes my experiment at attempting to get J-bot banned... ;)

I miss the ability to get someone's attention who angers me. I think I used negative rep about 5 times in two years. When someone posts something totally outrageous & upsetting, it felt good to be able to do something on my own about it.

Frank

:souka:

I suppose it is per square. So that would mean 750 points to get the 5 dark green ones, 2000 points to get the 5 dark green + the 5 medium green ones, and 6000 points to get all the 15. And above 6000 it is a star, right ?

Yes, it is per pip. You are arithmetically correct, let's see if it works. :-)

Nono, don't worry Minty. You being Chinese should be fine. It's just that there are always going to be idiots, the naive, etc. regardless of what your ancestry is. :)
I've noticed that many of the forum are actually open-minded enough to be critical of Japan. This is a Japan-reference forum, not a put-Japan-on-a-pedestal forum (although some folks DO do the latter...). Even one of the admins, Maciamo, has written some criticisms of its society which are on the main nonforum site of jref. (While others have disagreed with him, I tend to see these criticisms as a definite possibility, so I keep them in mind.)
So don't let things bother you. We welcome all people. If anything, it's the extreme "Japanophile" that bothers us :)
Well, I've been finding myself getting annoyed more and more easily, resulting in me hastily posting heated replies. So I guess I'm not quite there yet :p. I'm surprised I haven't been banned yet.

Thanks, that very nice of you. Talk to you later!:-)

Noooooo! I was hoping to get just one negative rep here, cause it just seems strange to have gotten none.

But now i ask where now does a member go to contribute a complain about a another member? Im sure mods wont want to hear members complain and *****,....
See that little red and white triangle at the bottom of the column for your name and avatar? You can click on that to report a bad post. Also, you can always pm the mods if you want to make a complaint. That's why they're mods. It's their duty and they keep things pretty straight here. I have nothing but admiration for the fine job they've done.

Gentlemen, let's keep this thread technical please. :-)

Does anyone have a star?? I dont think I have seen one of them...

I would have never given neg rep points to anyone, unless they were being derogatory, or said something offensive. I especially hate ad hominem attacks.

But either way, I really don't care.

Forum reputation.... my favourite topic... :sick:
First of all, thanks for the input, Dave. As Maciamo has explained, your suggestion to reduce the number of green balls relative to the time of absence is worth a thought, but technically not feasible. Such modifications would need a lot of hacking.

@ awards

Also a nice idea, but who will handle the extra work? I'm already busy enough keeping up with the most pressing technical issues.

@ extended rep system

I have just installed an extended reputation system that adds light green pips to the darker green ones and golden stars if you have reached a certain number of green pips. That should give our "rep collectors" a lot of time to play.

The problem is the mod voting doesnt seem to be effective, because theres one or two people on this forum who are blatantly getting away with spamming and trolling and all around clearly attempting to offend everyone while drowning sections of the forum at a time with their pointless drivel.

I wont mention names.

ok, so how about this:
Because rep points can't go off anymore, it means that in maybe 1 year 100 people have a maximum of all green balls... I think this is incorrect, especialy when people don't come on the forum for months... so how about when a person does not post a message on jref for lets say 2-3months, 1 green ball will go off? in this way people who are active on the forum have their balls.

That is not technically feasible.

Another problem I thought of with the absence of negative reputation points, is that users are freer to abuse other users without "paying for it". This clearly encourages an attitude toward slight disrespect whenever one disagrees, that will stay unchecked (I doubt anybody would be banned for anything but serious insults :okashii: ).

I am new so I only have been here over a month but I don�ft remember seeing a lot of flaming in this board, but there are lots of posts I have not read. The only ones I remember are in the China and Japan bilateral relation threads, but it is a sensitive topic.

But according to this thread and some other threads to do with blocking or ignore button I can see that there seem to be a lot of conflict in here that I am not aware of. However I do not think the atmosphere in this message board is that terrible, I find it quite peaceful for me so far, although I find some people are rather cold towards me at times, maybe it�fs because I am Chinese? (Even I am not from China.) Don't worry I don't take what people say on the message board that personally.:p

NB : If your rep points didn't go up after my negative rep points, it's probably because not many people felt like your comments were worthy of it.:blush:

I never said my rep points didn't go up after the event - is this another example of you disclosing information that you have access to behind the rep points that nobody else does?

If someone chooses to not display their reputation, shouldn't that mean egotistical moderators should not blurt out the information?

And if you will quote all the long term members who agree with you, check on this thread for other who don't. Also check my rep tags (as you seem very keen on doing) and you can see who agreed with me.

I know some people here only want to hear about the good stuff of Japan but I think it is unrealistic; we don't live in a utopia. I think as long as it is kept under control it should be still ok.

I know some people who only talk about the bad stuff, while THE TOPIC Japan deserves more positive posts.. ESPECIALY the Immigration foreigners section... that is just negative!!!!!!!!!!

Ah sorry Minty, i seem to have misled you.

This isnt about japan, even i dont like everything about japan, infact im pretty sure ide rather not live there the rest of my life :relief: . My main concern is individuals who i feel are misbehaving a little, not entirely fostering the friendly atmosphere, bordering the line, generally pushing the limits of the peace and rules of the forum.

I know some people who only talk about the bad stuff, while THE TOPIC Japan deserves more positive posts.. ESPECIALY the Immigration foreigners section... that is just negative!!!!!!!!!!

There are certain sections in here that do have many negative posts but that's because they are touchy issues, you can't force people to say only good things about Japan because that�fs how you feel about Japan. However I agree that if you really want to add more positive posts to those sections, that's perfectly fine, no doubt. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Ah, that is a good idea--negative rep is more likely to be abused than positive.

Incidentally, the only negative rep point I ever got was from a thread where I had (civily) disagreed with Maciamo. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/ReikuHiteruo/Emoticons/LolLolLolLol.gif

Don't know if he gave it to me though--whoever did didn't give their name.

I think neg rep points served no useful purpose as they just would get people's backs up without being constructive. It's better to offer constructive criticism on the forum or through pm.

I suppose it is per square. So that would mean 750 points to get the 5 dark green ones, 2000 points to get the 5 dark green + the 5 medium green ones, and 6000 points to get all the 15. And above 6000 it is a star, right ?

aaaa wakata... I lost one green balll now... boehoe haha..

above 6000 a star... Cool... mmm just it mean i should post better.. Good:wave:

Just one question, what about the people who have already recieved neg rep and have little red balls? Does that get cleared or does it remain?

Merely disagreeing with Maciamo is not enough for him to wipe out your positive rep in one fell swoop, it's in the way you disagree with him. I have rarely agreed with him, and I have yet to get any bad rep from him.
Perhaps because it hasn't happened as much this year as in the past over pedestrian disagreements. I couldn't care less when it happened to me, just laughing it off although it still takes the cake for one of the more immature and just plain stupid things I've been fortunate enough to experience here. It's no different really than his changing arguments and logic mid-stream, not answering the difficult questions, name-calling etc. in the grab bag of tiresome tactics. :sorry:

Because the Negative reputation doesn't exist anymore, and it will never come back, I am closing this thread.

What else could a man wish for?
�W��

Something to hang under the balls it.:relief: :relief:

I quite like this actually!

Now I have ten square balls!

What else could a man wish for?

�W��

things like that, if been to a website ones, and they had this kind of awards, have a look at here: http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216167 personaltiy of the year... best thread of the year... i tried to start a award thread before, but yeah who the F*ck am i to do that?? you have the name of Admin, donator etc, so you can make something like this too, can't ya? I know you can with PHPBase...

and no I do not forget about past, but I think a lot off people agree with me, that someone who did not come on the forum for like 1 year, and have most green balls, is incorrect

I like the green balls, but now it starts to get boring, and i do not care about the green balls anymore, so i think a new thing like awards, make people think about post, you can get new members, and a higher quality of the forum....

its a good thing that negative rep point disapeard, so that people can tell there mind more... but something extra i think is a good idea....

Do with it what you want to do!!! hope people support an idea similar to this.

"most tactful debater"I nominate myself for that one :D :D :D

800... aaah then i still have a lot of points to gain.. WHOEHOE... give me the Rep...

Arigato for making the rep points fun again...

Seems fair enough, i never give bad rep anyway.

I thought that the neg rep was a good thing. It seems to me that the positive rep was the one most often abused! That and if you gave the wrong person neg rep (for a valid reason) they tended to get upset and retaliate against you...but that is not really a problem in my mind. There were safeguards in place to keep people from repeatedly giving bad rep to the same people over and over...so it all worked out.

Now the only way to police each other is to run to a mod...I personally liked the old way better...even though I am probably in the minority!

Another way that I have seen that works well in other forums is to require that people sign their post with their real names. If they don't sign, a mod deletes the post, that simple...and people tend to play nicer and not get so agressive when their name is out there for all to see.

Is the shutting down of negative rep points an attempt to rid the forum, of all negativity? because through the bad rep points people vented a bit of fustration on another member about the post in question. But now i ask where now does a member go to contribute a complain about a another member? Im sure mods wont want to hear members complain and *****, but honestly the bad rep started a lot of bad vibes between folk, which did spill onto the forum pages. Which has seemed quite often in the past months.

I like this community, its good honest folk with really interesting things to say, you know what im announcing myself as "the sheriff" of this here town, sort out the bad from the ugly, and do things for the overall wellbeing of this here community.

Now I have to say goodbye for ever for my chance at those shiny red balls.... :( :giggle:

it's been a couple of months now, since there is no negative Rep points, and I wonder what everyone is thinking about it!!

Do you think that Jref has become a better Forum? or do you think it went down!

I kinda miss the negative rep points, even though I didn't used them a lot, and I know that some people misabused them. I just want people to know I disagree with their post, and just replying doesn't always work!!!

Freedom of speech isnt the problem, and since this is a privately owned internet forum, freedom of speech is garunteed with my ass, seriously though it doesnt exist.
Neg rep ensured folk behaved, its not about good or bad of japan, its about people not afraid of consiquences (mainly because the forum ownership dont seem to bothered about enforcing the law).
I dunno, i just think we need neg rep back, the community was better at policing itself, the forums have went to crap since we lost it, not so bad, but, not as good as it used to be.
We can either have crippling moderation, or community policed neg rep, i like the latter myself.

I understand perfectly your point. But sometimes just because people don't agree with what others said doesn't necessarily make that person a bad one, having negative reputation will encourage abuse of it, then people will be forced to say only good things about Japan or pay the consequences which is not necessarily right. I know in general Japan is a country with lots of positive points but she has her down side too.

I understand that you are in love with a Japanese woman and you don't like to see any bad points made about Japan. But the way I see it the message board is a discussion forum, people come here to share ideas and views, people agree and disagree this is human nature. As long as it is kept under control and not go over the board I think it is ok, this is where the moderators come in and give people who did go over the board warnings. If they continue to behave in an unacceptable manner I propose them to be banned.

If I had to sign my posts with my real name I would be out of here like a shot! I'm not overly cautious about revealing it - a few members know it. But if I made it public, there are certain things I would feel unable to say - like comments about my in-laws :blush:

Ah, but wouldn't the old saying fit well? "If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all!"

Not to mention, people who are so quick to criticize things or people would maybe be a little nicer about it! It is quite hypocritical to get paid by someone to do a job, and then turn around and criticize them openly in a public forum for things that they do that annoy you...I would bet that many people here do not have the courage to tell people that those same things annoy them!:p

I'm with Frank. Some folks are just plain annoying and ignorant of their own self-righteous stupidity.

I think the forum has gone down, too, but maybe not because of the rep point thing. Maybe it's because I'm not too fond of some of the new folks that came in during my short break (I just don't bother reading/responding to some people's posts anymore- it's pointless to get into arguments since it takes up time and energy and never settles). Maybe it's because of Lexico's absence :(

Merely disagreeing with Maciamo is not enough for him to wipe out your positive rep in one fell swoop, it's in the way you disagree with him. I have rarely agreed with him, and I have yet to get any bad rep from him.

But I have not offended him and have tried to stay engaged with him.

I still see your point. Maciamo's rep clout is very large indeed!

I agree Kinsao - it's a demonstration of how much negativity it creates that people are still upset about negative rep they received months ago.

Upon reflection ...

CC1 has a point here.

Even in the real world, preventative medicine is the best!

I really like his last paragraph. As one who does not hide behind total anonymity I do feel that it is something that could be given consideration (and I would have no objection at all) ... although I do realise that there are many drawbacks ....

�W��

My abuse of the reputation point system was really childish of me. I apoligize for my behavior a few months ago. I really hope it didn't have that profound of an effect on disabling neg. reputation points.

Maciamo would have Kablamo power!

I've politely (I hope) disagreed with him, so I don't think he'd have reason to red card me.

Forum reputation.... my favourite topic... :sick:
a lot of people like it, and now you only have pos rep points... it should not be so difficult as before ne:p

@ awards
Also a nice idea, but who will handle the extra work? I'm already busy enough keeping up with the most pressing technical issues.
well you got 5000 members, you got enough moderators, a couple of donators, etc, I'm sure there are some smart guys over here who can help you with something. when you grow bigger, you can't do everything yourself ..... but all my respect for what you guys have done in all those years * lot of envy*

@ extended rep system
I have just installed an extended reputation system that adds light green pips to the darker green ones and golden stars if you have reached a certain number of green pips. That should give our "rep collectors" a lot of time to play.
Great, well if you don't have time for awards yet, please keep it in your mind, and for the next months, years I will definitely the one who will give a big vote for that. arigato:wave:

These are the current settings:
Dark Green Value = 150
Medium Green Value = 250
Light Green Value = 800

I suppose it is per square. So that would mean 750 points to get the 5 dark green ones, 2000 points to get the 5 dark green + the 5 medium green ones, and 6000 points to get all the 15. And above 6000 it is a star, right ?

These are the current settings:

Dark Green Value = 150
Medium Green Value = 250
Light Green Value = 800

I haven't posted in ages. I'd bet my negative rep would have been sky high, but I'm generally a nice person so it would have just gone back up.

But what about the true trouble makers who become members just to flame and piss people off. The little red balls kind of helped to identify those people and if they got enough, they were gone.

You should have tried disagreeing with Maciamo, then you could get a few that would wipe out all the posistive rep you ever had :)

I rarely give bad rep to people just for disagreeing with me, as Mikawa Ossan pointed out (otherwise, most long-term members would have had bad rep from me at one time or another). I only give bad rep when someone makes everything they can to get on my nerves, without contributing much to the discussion. You have been the worst in this regard so far.:relief:

NB : If your rep points didn't go up after my negative rep points, it's probably because not many people felt like your comments were worthy of it.:blush:

Hear Hear !! I think it's a good idea, AND at least we can still give feedback :)

so the green still goes up?

Another problem I thought of with the absence of negative reputation points, is that users are freer to abuse other users without "paying for it". This clearly encourages an attitude toward slight disrespect whenever one disagrees, that will stay unchecked (I doubt anybody would be banned for anything but serious insults).

I do not think that the absence of negative rep encourages members to behave bolder. If I remember correctly, abusive users were not exactly deterred by the perspective of collecting red balls. Furthermore, members can just turn off the rep system. I'm convinced that the abolishment of "neg rep" will contribute to more civil conduct by eliminating one significant source of misunderstanding and controversy.

At the moment we have the option of banning users temporarily. This offers mods and admins a sanction that can be applied in cases of severe misconduct. In the near future I will install a warning system and set up clear and transparent rules when to assign warning points. The accumulation of a specified number of warning points will result in the suspension of a member.

However, I am afraid that a warning system could again be abused in a repressive fashion similar to negative reputation points.

Merely disagreeing with Maciamo is not enough for him to wipe out your positive rep in one fell swoop, it's in the way you disagree with him. I have rarely agreed with him, and I have yet to get any bad rep from him.

I can say that I have also disagreed with Maciamo (I can't remember whether it was often or not) and have also never received any bad rep from him.

I think - I hope - that the vast majority of posters were too mature to give out bad rep simply for someone holding a different opinion.

In any case, that is all in the past now.

heh.. MR oyasumi.. .

I noticed this change - I think it's great! Thanks Thomas! :flower:

in this way people who are active on the forum have their balls.

i had to quote that sentence ! :lol:
Although I suppose everyone has already made enough jokes about people's balls. :sorry:

i only just joined the forum. i can see how the rep ( neg v pos ) could contribute to arguments or some things like that, and unfairness, so maybe it's good not to have the negative rep anymore. But points are nice .. not to "collect" rep in a competitive way ( but maybe some people do this if it's their personality ) but it's nice to see what someone wrote about your post .. what they were thinking . Maybe it's not important enough for a reply in the thread , or they don't want to be so close as a private message, but they can still tell what they thought.

That's just my idea, but i'm new, so maybe it doesn't work like that for real.
:clueless:

I remember ages ago when maybe just a couple of months after i joined this forum, a guy called "Puzzle" joined up while there were very few members logged on, including no mods/admins. He went around posting some really sick anti-japanese stuff like pictures of dead japanese people and went around trolling and in a matter of only about 10mins he had posted a lot of nasty stuff around almost every section of the forum- i went and relataliated at some of the things he said(can't say i wasn't too polite at some of the stuff he was doing).
Anyways, soon somone came a long and banned him and deleted all his posts, but they didn't delete the stuff i had said to him. So i got a whole heap of negative rep before i even knew what what the reputation system thing was 'cos a load of people must have thought i was just randomly throwing insults at no-one in various threads.

I never really noticed the reputation point system much other than that...I use it quite often to give good rep points to people, but it doesn't really have a whole lot of use in the forum apart from finding out who agree's with various opinions/statements you make and whatnot, which is more of a curiosity thing than anything else...And i guess such a system does perhaps make people more aware of what they are saying? Or does it just opress certain views and opinions that various people have?

Positive rep still goes up.

@ extended rep system
I have just installed an extended reputation system that adds light green pips to the darker green ones and golden stars if you have reached a certain number of green pips. That should give our "rep collectors" a lot of time to play.

haha i can see it, looking good, i got some work to do now, people give me REP REP.. WOEHOE

only question what is now the maximum of rep points... with the former one it was 1500 points and then you have all green balls, how about now?:wave: